How I Make Money Blogging [My Income Split in April 2010]

Today I’m updating the Make Money Blogging page here on ProBlogger – a page where I give a breakdown of how I make money from blogging.

This time I’ve decided to do a snapshot of last month (April 2010). I also thought that I’d put together a bit of a video as well as updating the page – to speak to the different parts of how I make money blogging as well as writing it up.

Here’s the video (created using ScreenFlow – please forgive the slight lag between audio and video).

How I Earn Money Blogging [April 2010 Stats] from Darren Rowse on Vimeo.

For more information you might also want to check up the updated Make Money Blogging page.

PS: Thanks to Tim Jack for the motion graphics intro/outro to the video.

How Small Victories Help You Create Big Products for Your Blog

A Guest Post by Paul Cunningham from Blogging Teacher.

Recently Darren blogged about how you can use small victories to build momentum in your blogging. This same technique can also be used for product creation for your online business.

Creating a product for sale is a goal for many bloggers, but some bloggers struggle to see a path from where they are now to where they want to be with their product. One of the biggest obstacles can be the reality that creating a product to sell involves a lot of hard work.

Instead of looking at your product idea as one giant project that you need to complete, build momentum by breaking it down into smaller steps that you can achieve with less effort. Here is an example of a process you can use to progress from running a blog to launching a paid membership site as a product.

Create a Free Report or Email Course

Take a look at your Google Analytics and see how many visitors in the last 30 days were new visitors to your blog. In other words, people who have never been to your blog before. Even if these visitors stick around for several minutes and read a few of your latest posts you still have an archive of older posts that they probably won’t see. And chances are they’ll never come back to your blog again.

By mining your archives for older, related blog posts you can bundle that content together and repurpose it into killer content to use to convert new visitors into subscribers.

For example, take a handful of related posts from one category and turn them into a free guide that visitors can sign up to your mailing list to receive.


This method can increase the conversion rate for new visitors into subscribers because they see the free guide as an incentive to sign up to your mailing list immediately.

Another popular variation of this is to create a short email course instead of a downloadable guide. When the visitor signs up to your list they are put into an auto responder series that delivers them the information in a sequence.


This is a great way to re-use a blog post series from your archives, and test out a product idea by measuring the response to your free offering.

An added advantage of this method is that it gets the subscriber used to opening your emails, which can improve your conversion rates later on if you choose to send marketing emails to them.

See also:

Create an Ebook to Sell

If you’ve been blogging for a while you’ve probably got most of an ebook already written in your archived blog posts. Even if you only blog once or twice each week that can easily add up to 50000-80000 words which is a massive amount of content that can be quickly edited down and put in sequence for an ebook.

You then only need to write an introduction, some interlinking material and do formatting and design for the ebook and you’ve got a product ready to sell to your audience.


See also:

Create a Membership Site

The holy grail of products these days seems to be membership sites. These are usually training or mentoring programs run over several weeks or months and provide strong, recurring revenue for the owner.

The effort involved in launching a membership is much greater than other products, but don’t worry, if you use the techniques already mentioned in this post you can be on the way to your own membership site as well.

First you can test your ideas in the market by putting out free guides and short email courses to see what kind of response they get. Once you have established a viable product you can create the first iteration of it as an ebook. This is a low cost entry point for selling products and if successful will further confirm the viability of your membership site while also providing a stream of revenue that you can reinvest into the development costs for the site.

You can then take your existing content from your blog, guides, email courses and ebooks and complement it with richer content such as video tutorials and audio podcasts for the membership site.


By the time you are ready to launch your membership site your content has been well tested and revised based on feedback, and you’ve got an established mailing list of potential customers and JV partners to market the site to.

Long Term Strategy

The techniques listed above are not a formula for overnight success, but they can be used to achieve your goal of creating products and building an income from your blogs.

Depending on where you are with your blog traffic and audience you may be able to skip over the free guides and email courses and jump straight to the paid product opportunities.

But if you’ve got a new blog or your monetization efforts for an established blog have not yet been started you can begin with the free content and build on that over a period of time to eventually reach the more lucrative stages of selling products and memberships.

Paul Cunningham writes articles, tips and tutorials at Blogging Teacher to help bloggers overcome the many challenges they face building a successful blog. Follow @paulcunningham on Twitter.

Poor Bloggers Focus Too Much On Blog Posts

Guest post by David Risley, of David Risley dot com.

What I’m about to share might be a little bit counter-intuitive for many, so I ask that you stick with me.

What if I were to tell you that blog posts really aren’t all that important?

OK, Mr. crazy man. Stop yanking my chain.

However, I’m quite serious and I’m saying this to you as a full-time, professional blogger who makes his living completely online.

The simple truth is this: Poor bloggers spend most of their time writing blog posts. PROBloggers spend most of their time on what actually matters – business.

Blogging Isn’t A Business

I’ve been quite direct about the fact that blogs are not businesses. I believe that so many bloggers get so hung up on their medium that they haven’t stepped back to look at the big picture. A blog is a promotional medium and a communications platform. And in order to really monetize a blog, you have to ask the question: To what end?

What is your real product? What is the thing that you can provide to others in exchange for some of their money?

See, what we do with blogs is nothing new. The platform is different, but it is essentially human communication and we’ve been doing that ever since the days men were writing on caves.

Then, people developed economies. Some people create things that others can use, and others buy it. Then, people learned how to use the art of writing to promote those products. Thus, people had the power to mobilize crowds of people into certain things. Economies got bigger. Media expanded the reach of promotions into TV, magazines, etc. The Internet then revolutionized the way we communicate. Now, any of us has the power to create and mobilize groups of people from the confines of our bedrooms.

All that being true, the rules haven’t changed. People still spend money on products that they need and want.

Want to Actually Make Money? Then, Answer This…

So, I ask you: What is your product, really?

Your product should be something which is valuable to your audience which they will be willing to fork over a little money for. When you have that, your blog is a promotional medium for an actual business.

Most bloggers today operate in a dream world of made-up business rules. They try to make money with their blogs when they have nothing to sell. They’ll try to monetize the eyeballs only by littering the blog up with banner ads to sell other people’s stuff. It doesn’t take long for most bloggers to realize what a freaking difficult way to monetize a blog that is!

So many bloggers seem to think of their blog as a newspaper. Newspapers are monetized by ads. Guess what? Newspapers are disappearing left and right last time I checked. The model is limited and broken. So, why try to perpetuate it in a completely different medium?

No, the REAL answer to full-time incomes from blogs is to answer that question: What is my product? And if you don’t have one, you need to create one.

In other words, build a real business, then slap a blog on top of it. :) Treat the blog, not as a newspaper, but as a promotional vehicle for an actual business. This isn’t to say all you do is pimp your products. On the contrary, you provide really great content in order to build the relationship up with your reader. However, you do it with the aim of converting into a sale of your own product.

So, Blog Posts Aren’t That Important?

Now, let’s come fill circle back to my original point. Blog posts aren’t really all that important?

Here’s my point: Blog posts are not your product. They won’t get you paid. So, spending all of your blogging time writing more posts isn’t getting you anywhere – IF you want to turn your blog into a revenue producer.

My suggestion is to regroup. Take whatever time you have available for your blog and divide it up. Spend part of the time thinking ahead by producing assets that will help you grow your business. Products to sell, content to use to build your email list, etc. Schedule this into your routine. Then, use the remaining time to write blog posts.

If you have a readership and still aren’t making much more than a few bucks per month from your blog, then something is wrong. And the answer is most likely to be found in the question, “What’s your product?”

David Risley is a professional blogger, which basically means he sits and types a lot and manages to earn a living at it. His blog is the Confessions Of a Six Figure Blogger, and you can follow his escapades on Twitter.

7 Tips for Profitable Niche Blogging

Guest post by Deb Ng from Freelance Writing Gigs.

While going over my stats last summer, I learned something important: If I stopped blogging each day, I would still earn enough each month from my content to draw a salary and pay the bloggers who write for my network. I’m no longer breaking even and I can tell you, after almost five years of trying to make this blog work out, the rewards go far beyond that of money. Success is a great motivator.

I would like to tell those who don’t feel niche bloggers can’t earn decent advertising revenue, they couldn’t be more wrong.

“Make money online” bloggers are always pimping affiliate links. Niche bloggers can’t necessarily do this. Our readers don’t want to receive pitches every day. Moreover, not all niche blog readers are buyers. For example, selling high end products via a frugal living blog probably isn’t the best idea. The same with my freelance writing blog; one thing I learned over the years is that writers don’t open their wallets for the next big thing. If they’re buying products through an affiliate link, it has to provide tremendous value. When I have sold it’s with conferences, books, ebooks, courses and other teaching products. The bulk of my income doesn’t come from affiliate links, however. They come from private ad sales and Adsense.

So, niche bloggers, here is my advice to you:

  1. Traffic and community come first: To truly earn money through advertising revenue on a niche blog, you have to build trust within your community. Sure, you can place ads on your blog from the very beginning, but they probably won’t earn. Don’t focus on monetization right off the bat. Take the time to build traffic and community. Establish trust among your readers. Once you have an active community and regular traffic with a pattern you can rely on, then you can deal with traffic.
  2. Know your readers: Before you sell anything, you have to know your market. Tech blogs and “make money online” blogs can enjoy a more diverse income stream because their readers will respond to a variety of products and services. Not so much with nichier topics. Knowing your community’s habits is essential to monetizing narrow niches. For example, my community is made up of clickers, not buyers. As mentioned above, when they do buy, they choose items that teach. They don’t invest in gadgets but they will invest in materials to help them further their careers.  I learned what they like by playing with the various revenue streams and also by conducting polls and reading every single one of their comments and emails.
  3. It won’t happen overnight: Don’t be frustrated if you don’t begin earning as soon as you place ads. It doesn’t happen overnight. Your community wants to trust you – and your advertisers.  Give each ad some time to earn, but if you don’t see any response at all after a month or two, explore other advertising possibilities.
  4. Good content continues to earn over time: Timeless or “evergreen” content has the ability to earn for a lifetime. Try posting advice that will be relevant five years from now. In addition to current news and events, discuss topics that will always appeal to web searchers.
  5. Find other forms of passive income: Advertising isn’t the only way you can earn through your blog. As Darren has proved here, you can also sell ebooks, courses, work books, webinars and even a membership forum.
  6. Don’t wait for advertisers to find you: For me, private ad sales are the most lucrative. Other than Adsense, my highest payers are advertisers who didn’t come from a particular advertising agency. I found many of them on my own. Advertisers won’t reach out to you if they don’t know about you. If you have enough traffic coming in, create a press kit. List stats such as bounce rate, pageviews, traffic and more. Market your blog much in the same way traditional media market to their advertisers. See if you can convince potential advertisers to come on board.
  7. Don’t rest on your laurels: OK, so you have a few ads. I can tell you now, it won’t last. You can’t expect every advertiser to stick with you for years. They come, advertise for a while, and go on their merry way after sales start to lag a bit. Always be on the lookout for new sponsors and advertising opportunities to ensure there are no dry periods.

Many niche blogs are difficult to monetize, but they don’t have to be. If you study your community and traffic patterns, you can find some profitable solutions. You might have to think outside the box or sell your own stuff, but once your blog hits, the sales will soar.

Are you monetizing your blog now? What methods are using and how is it working out for you?

Deb Ng is a freelance writer, professional blogger, social media consultant and founder of the Freelance Writing Jobs network of blogs. Follow Deb on Twitter @debng.

44% of Bloggers Sell a Product or Service Of Their Own From Their Blog

The last poll here on ProBlogger examined a growing trend among bloggers trying to monetize their sites – to sell their own products from their blogs rather than just relying upon advertising and affiliate revenue.

Whether it be by selling an E-Book, training program or some other kind of learning program or whether it is selling one self as a consultant or promoting a product from a business that the blogger owns – more and more bloggers do seem to be exploring this as a way to make money.

The poll results were as follows:


I’ve not run this poll previously so have nothing to compare it to – however my gut feeling on this one is that if conducted even just a year ago the percentages would have been further apart. I suspect in the year ahead we’ll see them grow even closer.

Out of interest I thought I’d compile a list of the types of products and services that people said that they sell in the comments of the poll post. You can see that there’s a lot of variation (it’s actually a really inspiring list to me that illustrates a little of what can be done with a blog!

  • Design work
  • Web/Plugin Development
  • Membership Site
  • Coaching/Mentoring
  • E-Books
  • Reports
  • Legal Services
  • Book (hard cover)
  • Software
  • Speaking/Training Services
  • Music Lessons
  • Copy Writing Services
  • SEO services
  • Tutoring
  • Screencast/Video Content
  • Scrapbook Supplies
  • Sewing Patterns
  • Photographic Prints
  • Excel Templates
  • Music/CD
  • Craft
  • Flowers/Florist
  • Bag Patterns
  • Marketing Services
  • Skincare products
  • Handmade Soap
  • Makeup Artist Services
  • Craft Kits
  • Calendars
  • Vintage Clothing
  • Gourmet Food Items
  • Toys
  • Website Templates
  • Paintings/Art
  • Diet Products
  • Real Estate Brokerage
  • Fitness Program
  • Scuba Diving Education Business
  • Personalised Spoof Newspaper Front Pages
  • T-Shirts
  • Jewellery

There are sure to be many many other examples of what can be sold off the back of a blog – feel free to add more of your experience in this in comments below.

Two Limited Time Offers for Bloggers Wanting to Learn How to Make Money

In the last 24 hours two teaching resources have launched that will help you to learn some great lessons on making money online:

1. Blog Masters Club – presented by David Risley, this resource is in it’s second class and will be available until next Tuesday. David presents a comprehensive 16 module course for bloggers including 92 videos, loads of transcrips, MP3s, forum, action guides and some nice bonuses. He’s offering a discount for those who act to join in the first 24 hours so to get in at the discount you need to act today.

To get a taste for whether this is the type of teaching for you David has released some free stuff worth checking out:

  • Six Figure Blogger Blueprint
  • How to Psychologically Evaluate Any Niche [Video]
  • The Blut Simple Truth About Making Money Blogging [Video]

2. Shoemoney System – presented by Jeremy Schoemaker, the Shoemoney System launched today and Jeremy tells me that he’s already 75% sold out (he’s taking a maximum of 500 students). It looks like they’ll close their doors inside 24 hours if signups continue at the same rate that they have been.


The Shoemoney system is a little broader in it’s approach than David’s course above (which focuses more upon blogging). Jeremy’s system again focuses heavily upon video presentations (over 100 hours) and is a 12 month training course. He also throws in some good bonuses including $2500 in free advertising from a variety of companies that will help you get yourself going.

Jeremy is a well connected buy and he pulls in some big names and knowledgeable people in his teaching with lots of interviews and tools.

To get a taste of what it’s all about here’s some stuff to check out:

If you’re wanting to focus your energy just on blogging – I’d go with David’s Blog Masters Club. If you’re wanting a broader introduction to online marketing that goes beyond blogging, go with the Shoemoney System.

Do Make Money Online Tips only Work on Blogs about Making Money Online?

One of the common critiques that I’ve seen about sites/books/information product/blogs/courses/e-book about making money online is that its only those teaching how to make money online who actually make money online.

‘He only has a six figure income because he charges people to learn how to make a six figure income!’

This was one comment that someone made about another blogger recently. It sparked a chorus of other similar comments – people like to use that argument.

I understand this critique on some levels – there are quite a few bloggers out there who do only make money from make money online blogs and have not really had success in any other niche. While there’s nothing wrong with this – it obviously raises the eyebrows of some and makes them wonder if it’s possible to do it any other way.

There are also a lot of make money online bloggers making big claims and hyping up their own success – trying to get credibility in what is a competitive niche. This can distort the prominence and success of this type of blog and make it seem like it’s the only type of blog that can make money.

Can you only make money online by starting a make money online site and charging for the information?

I think it’s pretty evident that this isn’t true. While there are a few prominent examples of success stories in the make money online niche there are more many more people making a great living from blogs in other niches.

However many times these stories go untold because:

  • the blogger behind the site doesn’t have an avenue to talk about their success
  • they don’t want to talk about it – for fear of competition
  • they simply don’t want to be seen to be boasting or ‘tooting their own horns’

I hear from many bloggers in a wide variety of niches who are making a good living from their blogs who for one reason or another have not talked publicly about their stories.

Side note: On the flip side I also hear from a lot of ‘make money online’ bloggers who struggle to make any money from their blogs (it is nowhere near as easy as it might seem).

My Own Experience

I first started making money from blogging on a blog that had nothing to do with blogging or making money from blogs. In fact the first blog I experimented with making money on was a personal blog that talked about a multitude of topics. In time that blog did start to talk about blogging but it was far from solely a ‘make money online’ blog.

I then started a photography blog that aggregated camera reviews from around the web (no longer active) on that original personal blog’s domain. That blog became the biggest source of my full time income in the next year or two (it was around this time I hit the ‘six figure income’ level).

Out of my experience with that blog (and others) I started to talk about what I was learning and share tips on how to make money blogging (in 2004). ProBlogger did end up growing to earn more than that original photography blog but it wasn’t for a year or so that it got established.

The original photography blog wasn’t a very satisfying blog to run and I ended up letting it die before starting my new Digital Photography School in 2006. DPS took a couple of years to really grow to a significant level – but today it is my main source of income. Traffic wise it does 5-6 times the traffic of ProBlogger on an average day and income wise it’s making significantly more than this site (I’d estimate that it’s 3-4 times as profitable as ProBlogger most months).

I share this story in an attempt to dispel the myth that to make money online you have to talk about making money online. Yes you can make money in this niche – but there are plenty of other niches where bloggers are making as much, if not more.

Do You Make a Secret Full Time Income from Your Blogs?

My story is not unique – there are many bloggers ‘out there’ who have built successful blogs that now sustain them full time financially. By no means are these bloggers in the majority (most bloggers make very little) but they are out there!

If you’re making a full time living from your blog I’d like to connect with you. In fact – I’d like to interview you.

I know for some full time bloggers the idea of sharing your story is something you’d rather not do (due to reasons I outlined above) – but if you are interested in sharing your story and have done so simply because you didn’t have an avenue to do it I’d really be interested to touch base with you to explore whether you’d be interested in being interviewed here on ProBlogger.

If you’re interested – please contact me through the ProBlogger contact form. Please include the word ‘interview’ in the first line of your email to help me make sure it gets my attention. It would also be helpful to have a link to your blog and a short description of it and your business model. I will keep these details private unless we mutually decide to do an interview.

I can’t guarantee to interview everyone who emails – but I hope to do as many as I can to highlight how blogs have become profitable in a variety of niches.

How to Make More Money From Your Blog in the New Year : Best of ProBlogger

Todays post in the Best of ProBlogger 2009 series looks at the topic of making money from blogs. By no means is it a comprehensive or complete guide to the topic but below are 12 of the more popular posts we’ve had on the topic this year.

  1. The Importance of Having Your Own Product to Sell
  2. How to Make $30,000 a Year Blogging
  3. The #1 Reason My Blogging Grew Into a Business
  4. 5 Ways to Make Money Blogging Once You Have Traffic
  5. $72,000 in E-books in a Week: 8 Lessons I Learned
  6. How to Find Direct Advertisers for Your Blog
  7. How I use Email Newsletters to Drive Traffic and Make Money
  8. What is Affiliate Marketing?
  9. How to Find Profitable Affiliate Products to Promote
  10. 11 Lessons I Learned EArning $119,725.45 from Amazon Associates Program
  11. 10 More Amazon Associate Program Lessons I Learned on My Way to Six Figure Earnings
  12. Should I Add a Donation Button to My Blog?

How to Make $30,000 a year Blogging

Last night I was chatting with a blogger who was feeling completely overwhelmed with their goal of making a living from blogging.

I asked them how much they wanted to make from blogging.

They responded that they wanted to be a full time blogger.

I pushed them for a figure – what does ‘full time’ mean for you?

They thought for a moment and said that they could live off $30,000 USD a year (note: they wouldn’t have minded earning more but would be able to quit their current job at this kind of rate).

$30,000 a year sounds like a lot to make from a blog – especially when you’re starting out and are yet to make a dollar. To this blogger it seemed so overwhelming that she had almost convinced herself that it was not possible.

Advice for Becoming a Full Time Blogger

My response was threefold:

1. Don’t Give Up Your Day Job…. Yet

It is possible to make $30,000 a year blogging, but it’s unlikely to happen over night. Keep your feet on the ground and your expectations reasonable. IF it happens (and there are no guarantees) it is almost certainly going to take some time.

2. Be Specific

Saying that you want to be full time as a blogger is a great goal – but it’s not really specific enough. This is why I wanted the blogger I was chatting with to name a figure. For her full time was $30,000 – for others it could be more or less – the amount is not the point, the point is that you need something more concrete to work towards so that you’re able to measure where you’re at.

For me when I decided I want to go full time as a blogger I decided that I wanted to aim for $50,000 (Aussie Dollars) in a year as the bench mark (at that time $50,000 was around 36,000 USD). That’s around what I would have been earning in my current main job if I had been doing that full time (I was actually working a number of part time jobs at the time as well as studying part time).

Knowing what I was aiming for helped me in a number of ways when it came to getting to that goal.

3. Break it down into something more Achievable

$30,000 USD still sounds big when you’re a new blogger – and in some ways it is. However there are different ways of thinking about that figure. Lets break it down in the way that I used to look at my target.

  • $30,000 a year = $576.92 per week
  • $30,000 a year = $82.19 a day
  • $30,000 a year = $3.42 an hour

We could break it down on a monthly or on a minute by minute basis if we wanted to (in fact I did do it by minute from time to time for fun) – but the exercise is really about helping you to see that perhaps your big goal is a little more achievable if you are to break it down. Making $82.19 somehow seems a little bit easier to me than making $30,000 (or is that just me?).

OK – the other way that I used to break down my goal that I found really helpful to me was to do it based upon what I need to achieve to meet that target. For me I would usually look at the daily figure – in this case $82.19.

What do I need to do to make $82.19 a day ($30,000 a year)?

Well there’s a number of ways that much. Lets look at a few:

  • CPC Ads – lets say we’re running mainly AdSense on our blog and that the average click is paying 5 cents. That equates to 1643 clicks on AdSense ads (note: AdSense also runs CPM ads so it’s not quite as simple as saying you need 1643 clicks… but to keep this simple lets just go with that).
  • CPM Ads – lets say that we’re running CPM ads on our blog and we’re being paid $2 CPM per ad unit and we had 3 ads on each page (which is effectively $6 CPM per page). This would mean we’d need 13,000 page impressions.
  • Monthly Sponsorships – one way to sell ads directly to advertisers is to sell ads on a month by month basis as a sponsorship. To make $30k in a year you need to sell $2500 a month in ads. You might have 6 ad spots on your blog so this is 6 advertisers at $416.66 per advertiser per month.
  • Low Commission Affiliate Products – Lets say we were promoting affiliate products from a site like Amazon and your commissions were on average about 40 cents per sale. To earn $82.19 you’d need to sell 205 products.
  • High Commission Affiliate Products – In this case you might be promoting ebooks and earning $8 a copy (that’s what you’d earn selling my 31DBBB ebook per commission). The math is simple on this one – you’d had to sell around 10 e-books a day.
  • Really Big Commission Affiliate Products – of course e-books are not the biggest product out there to promote – there are products like training courses where you can earn hundreds per sale. Lets take one that might pay out $300 for a yearly membership on a bigger product. In this case you need to sell 8 of these per month.
  • Selling Your Own E-book – got your own product, perhaps an e-book, to sell from your blog? At $19.95 a sale you need to sell just over 4 of these a day. You can do the sums on cheaper or more expensive products.

Of course there are many many other ways to make money from blogs. Subscriptions, donations, paid reviews, selling yourself as a consultant….. etc. You can do the sums for yourself on your own model.

I know that some of the above figures still sound out of reach for bloggers – 1643 clicks on your AdSense ads sounds massive to a new blogger…. and it is – but do keep in mind that you can combine some of the above (in fact I’d recommend you diversify your income).

You might run 2 ad networks on your site, promote Amazon affiliates, sell your own e-book and promote someone’s membership course.

Looking back on my own figures for around the time when I hit my $50,000 AUD (around $100 USD a day) goal and for me at that time my income mix looked a like this (going from memory here):

  • AdSense: $35
  • Chitika: $20
  • Private Ad Sales: $20
  • Amazon: $15
  • Other Affiliate Commissions: $10

blogging income split

Note: I didn’t achieve this milestone until I’d been blogging for over 2 years (I blogged for the first year without trying to make money).

This didn’t happen over night (let me emphasize this – blogging for money is neither quick nor is it easy money) but I really found that breaking things down into more bite sized pieces helped me to stay motivated but also helped me to identify what I needed to work on in order to reach my goals (and for me to quite my day job).

Again – don’t quit your day job yet (in fact you may not want to quit it even when you reach your goal – it can be good to have a back up plan) but do work hard at being specific about your blogging goals and attempt to break it down in a way that helps you move towards them.